repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

topic posted Mon, April 7, 2008 - 10:46 AM by  Curran
(x-posted to The Crucible)

I have an old motorcycle gas tank that's in need of serious repair. It's a saddle-type tank, where the frame top-tube divides the tank in half, with a separate fuel tap on each bottom. (Thankfully, the areas around the fuel taps are sound.) Most of the bottom of each half is rusted out, and there are small rust-holes going up one side about 1/3 of the way. I'll be painting the tank, once it's repaired.

I know -- the first response from people is "get a new one", but this is an extremely rare bike, and after 6 months of serious searching, I have not been able to locate another gas tank anywhere in the world. So replacement isn't an option. My budget is low, so having it professionally restored isn't an option either. That leaves repairing it myself. Most of the bike's restoration, I'll be tackling myself and, having restored (to at least a decent amateur standard) a dozen or so bikes over the years, I'm pretty confident about doing whatever is necessary. However, I've never done rust-patching where it would be visible AND where it would have to safely contain gasoline. That's why I'm asking here.

The options that I know of are forming steel to the right contour and wire-welding or brazing it in place, and then doing any necessary filling with lead, brass or 2-part filler. I don't have a wire-welding rig, so that's going to make it more complicated, although I'm considering buying a flux-core (gasless) welding rig. Or, I could buy a brazing torch rig and go that route. I've done acetylene welding in the past, but never wire welding or brazing, although I'd like to learn and think I could pick either one up pretty quickly.

Are there other options I don't know about? Is there any way to use say, fiberglass or aramid-reinforced resin that will be able to patch a bike's gas tank? Some new miracle material or process?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
posted by:
Curran
SF Bay Area
  • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

    Mon, April 7, 2008 - 11:03 AM
    For vehicle restoration work, you need to use either original factory-made parts, or else an accurate authentic replica made to factory specs. However if you're willing to settle for a temporary repair in order to get the bike rolling until a reasonable facsimile part shows up, and aren't concerned about appearance, then you have any number of quick fix options. Just about any container capable of holding fuel can be adapted and then strapped onto your rig to get it rolling... this includes a tank from another bike, or even a plastic jerrycan. Depending upon the degree of damage to your existing tank, and where the rustout is located, you may be able to save it..... by lining it with sound material. Welding patches to rusted metal is pretty dodgy, and will come out springing new leaks very shortly. My idea is to fabricate a sound fuel container of either matals or resin, to be housed within the existing tank which would be retained only for cosmetic appearance.
    b!
    • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

      Mon, April 7, 2008 - 11:21 AM
      Well, a replica made to factory specs is pretty much impossible, since the company has been out of business for almost 50 years, and even when they were around, their motorcycles were mostly hand-made. So restoring the tank I've got is pretty much the only option. And this isn't a rat-bike; it's got to look original.

      However, your idea of lining the tank with some fuel-holding liner is interesting. I'll still have to patch the rust-through (for aesthetic reasons as well as for containing the liner), but I wonder if there's some kind of fuel bladder that could be put inside the tank. That would be easier if it weren't a saddle-tank, but still... Do you know of a liner material that's flexible enough to fit the inside of the tank, but can hold gasoline?
      • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

        Mon, April 7, 2008 - 12:04 PM
        I wonder if you could get a spray-on liner in there, much like the ones truck beds use. I'm not sure what kind of material they use, but it might withstand gasoline. The tricky part would be having to spray the whole inside through the little gas cap hole. Might be possible and worth looking into!
      • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

        Mon, April 7, 2008 - 12:11 PM
        Clean the old tank using Electrolosys and not acids.
        Go here:
        Use a real bona fide power supply that you can attenuate and not just a battery charger.

        This is the guy who impressed me the most and he provides a hell of a lot of information little of which am I capable of commenting on. He even teaches you how to build your own power supply.
        tinyurl.com/bkl4q


        This guy says to use 6 volts
        tinyurl.com/38oqhq

        Here is some one who thought to tell you about polarity
        tinyurl.com/38amh3

        Here is another with lots of pix
        tinyurl.com/2quuy5

        I clean my electrolysis work with Denatured Alcohol 'cause it takes all the water off and won't cause new rust.
        You must proceed immediately to a dry room.

        Then braze in patches where you have to and use lead and flux to fill in the pits and little holes. Properly bonded using a decent flux the lead will make a solid rust proof fuel tight seal. You can buy bars of lead in various hardware stores or auto places or online like this place: tinyurl.com/6ehy7j

        The racing industry is all about using burst resistant bladders instead of relying on a metal tank.
        A motor cycle racing place may be able to hook you up with a bladder. if you don't want to trust the restored tank.



        • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

          Mon, April 7, 2008 - 1:27 PM
          I've read a little bit about this reverse electrolysis and I want to give it a try, so thanks for the links!

          How to strip the paint off first, though? Any suggestions? Someone recommended taking it to a radiator shop, but I don't know if their process would potentially harm the taps if they were brazed or soldered in place.
          • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

            Tue, April 8, 2008 - 8:10 AM

            Try solvents like Zip Strip, MEK, toluene, lacquer thinner etc. If it's old school, it'll be a lacquer.

            If it's is impervious to solvents it's prolly an epoxy powder coat and you can strip that using baking soda blasting - not sand or bead basting cause they are destructive.
      • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

        Mon, April 7, 2008 - 12:27 PM
        Even though you only see some pinholes, the rust may have eaten much more metal, and the good steel will be very thin. I havn't had any luck welding thin rusty metal using a MIG welder (even with steel mix gas). You'll need to find the limits of the bad rust and completely cut out and replace the bad sheet metal so you'll have solid steel to weld on. I think it would be a good idea to have the tank mediablasted inside and out so you can see what you're dealing with.

        If you try the MIG route, definately get a bottle with steel mix since the gas will keep the metal cooler and help prevent blow-through. MIG welding is pretty easy, but for sheet metal, you'll have to be very slow and methodical. A continous bead (for me) is nearly impossible. I usually give it a quick zap, laying down only about 1/16" of bead. Wait until the weld cools to a dull cherry color, then give it another 1/16" zap. When you start a weld, always clip the blob of of the end of the wire.

        Better yet - Pay someone that knows how to TIG weld.

        Assuming you can get the tank structurally sound, you can carefully grind the welds and use a skin of filler to get everything smooth. Maybe you could find an old-timer that knows how to work with lead.

        Caswell sells a tank sealant and has some tips on prepping the tank. Check it out:

        www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm
        • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

          Mon, April 7, 2008 - 2:01 PM
          Sounds like good advice. Unfortunately, I doubt I could afford to pay someone to TIG-weld the tank professionally, so I'll have to repair it myself. Maybe I'll try the brazing method.

          What's the advantage of media-blasting, rather than say, reverse-electrolysis or dip-stripping?
          • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

            Mon, April 7, 2008 - 2:30 PM
            As a body man, and painter of many years, let me say without hesatation...UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU REPAIR, AND USE THAT TANK !!!
            #1 The pin holes indacate that the metal is very thin and not weldable, or brazable.
            2 Even if you got it to the point that it would hold gas, you would have gas in a container of unknown strengh, and safty.... sitting between your legs, over a hot motor, going down the road looking for the next big pothole, or situation where you would have to lay it down !
            3 Is being burned alive worth having the 100% correct tank on your vintage bike ?
            If you want to show your bike , then I would just do a cosmetic repair on the tank, never put gas in it and put it on at the show.
            To ride, I'd get one that looks good on the bike and use it.
            • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

              Mon, April 7, 2008 - 6:38 PM
              I may be just talking out of my ass here... but if you're dead set on keeping an original looking tank, what about using the tank as a mold to make a fiberglass tank? Or maybe even covering the whole tank with fiberglass? I've never done either, but i can tell you that Dan is right about the pinholes. Pinholes are just where the metal has corroded all the way through, all the metal around that pinhole is corroded too. If you want to see how bad the metal is corroded push at the metal around the pinholes with a screwdriver. You'll probably find numerous places where it goes right through. I had a tank that i was going to repair until i realized the the bubbling paint on the bottom was corrosion from the inside making it's way through. The entire bottom was pretty much rusted out!

              by the way, what kind of bike are you working on?
      • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

        Mon, April 7, 2008 - 11:58 PM

        Regardless of the factory being dead, if we're talking a straight-up cherry restoration here, you'd reverse-engineer the item in hand to come up with the specs. That's presuming having a fully-equipped metal fabrication shop and the skills to match... which you don't have.

        On the topic of replacement... sure you don't want to retrofit an old Bennelli or a JAWA or other euro-made tank which might be adaptable? Incidentally, wrecking yard junk is way cheaper than even the cheapest bill of homemade repair materials. After all, in terms of antique collectible value, we're not exactly talking a 1949 knucklehead here where strict adherence to using stock parts only might actually count.

        OK, to answer your question about how to execute a practical and inexpensive repair. This will cost less than $90. Welding would be a costly horror movie lesson. Even a seasoned journeyman would hesitate to take that on in your case. If they tell you different, they're funnin with ya. Never mind the years of experience it would take you to come up to speed to even think about doing it yourself.

        We get to the option I'd mentioned above, ... resin. Polyester resin with glass cloth = fiberglass. How to do? You'll need to dismount the tank. cut the tank in two along a crayon-scribed centerline which carefully goes around any existing fill or drain apertures, preserving them. Use a rented sawzall or thin metal cutting wheel on a rented handheld grinder. Open up the tank like a clamshell. Now you can access the insides. Remove all tubing & metering devices. Remove rust down to white metal using rust-removal jell or solution and then 1/4" drill -mounted wire brush (cheapest), or rent shop time to sandblast it yourself. (You don't have the budget nor resources to do the electrolytic bath thing.) Remove paint finish with automotive paint remover jell or solution. Once clean and bright, lay the two halves on workbench, open side up. These will serve as a mold for the glass. Patch rot holes with card taped to the outsides. Lay up resin-saturated strips of 3M glass cloth all inside the tank halves built up to a 5mm thickness, while leaving function apertures open and unglassed. Let it cure. (you might want to practice beforehand on an empty coffee can cut in two, in order to get the hang of laying up glass. Library has books on marine application fiberglassing mends). Clean tank edges of repair material so they fit together again. Now we need to create a joining seam surface to get the halves back together. Build up a 1cm lip of fiberglass all along the inside edge of the halves in order to arrive at a mating surface between the two halves, ..sort of a bead running all along both inside edges.. Think model airplane kit, where the two fuselage halves are joined. Let cure. File back the joining bead square and flat until the two halves mate with a clean and tight seam, surface to surface. Then slather mating surfaces generously with JB Weld, or other epoxy adhesive and mate the halves. Hold the 2 parts together until cured by tying up the work with bicycle innertube strips acting as a clamp. Let cure. Now test integrity of the join by plugging working holes and then sloshing around some fuel inside to see if any oozes. Fix that with epoxy. Fill and shape and form the outside rustrot hole areas with additional fiberglass, then file and sand down until outside looks nice. Refinish with spraycan primer and spraycan automotive lacquer. (library books on this). O yeah, before joining halves, get all your mechanical plumbing back in place. Then remount tank unit to motorcycle.

        Hope this helps. Any question?

        b!
        • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

          Tue, April 8, 2008 - 11:34 AM
          Hey Briggi --

          I don't think that it would be all that easy to adapt another tank to fit, given the specific size and angle of the top-tube, the position of the mounting points, etc. At the very least, I'd almost certainly have to cut off and re-weld the mounts. And anyway, the stock tank has a distinctive shape that I'd like to retain.

          I think I'll try a modified version of your DiY suggestion. However, instead of splitting the tank in half, I'll try using my Foredom with a metal-cutting disk to cut the bottom/inside half away from the top/exterior. I'll use stripper to remove the paint, and I'll go ahead and use the reverse-electrolytic process to de-rust; I have the battery charger, a plastic tub and the other necessaries. Instead of using glassfiber, I think I'll try a woven aramid (carbon fiber or Kevlar), since it's a tighter weave and it lays up nicer than glass (less itchy too!). I've done a bit of glassing, so that part shouldn't be difficult, other than the sealing up of the joint between the two pieces (given the small space to work in). Your description of the process was helpful.

          One thing I'm concerned about is residual moisture on the inside of the tank (including possible condensation) becoming trapped by the resin / JB Weld and forming pockets of rust from the inside-out. Any suggestions for avoiding that?

          Thanks again for all the advice!
          • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

            Tue, April 8, 2008 - 12:08 PM
            Yeah you just have to get the metal really spanky clean. Down to metal only, no trace of oxidation. none. Then wipe with acetone, then with alchohol ...wearing latex gloves to keep skin oils off surface., just immediately before applying resin glasscote base direct to metal. ... should eliminate stuff happening down the road.

            Those fibers stronger, better than glass... only 5 or 10 x more costly. Your money.

            b!
            • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

              Tue, April 8, 2008 - 12:42 PM
              Thanks for the advice about de-greasing. It'll be a challenge here in SF to avoid any airborne moisture, but I think that the procedure you suggest will take care of the surface.

              Re. the cloth -- TAP Plastics has 354 Aramid for under $25 a yard (by 50" wide), so I should be able to easily get by with a yard.

              Thanks again!
  • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

    Mon, April 7, 2008 - 1:53 PM
    Rot is a serious issue... I have "sealed up" old rusty tanks with a goo you can get from Aircraft supply people. You pour it in, roll it around, and let it dry. I don't think that's going to work for you as it's visible. I think you should go ahead and braze a new one together. Use the old one as a model, and don't destroy it if it's that rare. Tell us about the bike? Highly intrigued now...
    • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

      Mon, April 7, 2008 - 7:10 PM
      Well, the "goo" might still work, if I can figure out how to make the tank otherwise structurally sound, and ensure that there are no holes larger than the maximum that the goo manufacturers recommend. Brazing a new tank would be nearly impossible, as it's full of compound curves.

      It's a 1960 F.B.Mondial. I've never been able to find a picture of an identical one, but this one is very similar: preview.tinyurl.com/4oj2wf
  • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

    Sun, April 13, 2008 - 9:48 PM
    I have done the soap and water and gravel in the tanks and bounce it around in the bed of my truck to clear the inner rust,flakes, and then reseal the inner tank with an epoxy type resin after you have done the outside repairs

    Good luck
    • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

      Sun, April 13, 2008 - 11:37 PM
      Try searching "Serbatoio Mondial" on www.ebay.it. Send me a pm if you need help with the translation.
      There are a few parts still available, two tanks are here:
      cgi.ebay.it/Serbatoio-Mo...QcmdZViewItem
      cgi.ebay.it/MOTO-MONDIAL...QcmdZViewItem

      You can also trying contacting the seller in case it's not exactly the one you need.
      • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

        Mon, April 14, 2008 - 7:23 AM
        Ciaou Giovanni
        Even the best goo in the world will not restore structural integrity to a fuel reservoir that is perforated in places, and like paper-thin swiss cheese in other spots. That would be a futile stopgap temporary-at-best bandaid fix just waiting for a chance on a hot day speeding down the 'strada to rupture uncontrolably all down his leg waiting for a spark.

        It's not cost effective for him to import an expensive replacement. The market value of the bike would not be noticably improved with the addition of a tank from Italy at a cost of $160USD to $250USD , shipped. The bike total is worth maybe $1000 max, to be generous.... certo piu in Italia dove e genti qui le piace.

        No matter the best sloshing around in it of harsh solutions to remove fuel residue varnishes, you'd need to physically open the tank to make visual inspection, and then to accomplish a clean job of physically removing hardened gunk from crevices, and then phyusically remove the varnish remover.

        I agree that all the work of fabricating a synthetic fiber-resin tank is probably not worth it.... but it seems to be a labor of love for him. A cleverly chosen tank from another make could be adapted to fit with maybe a re-positioning and re-brazing of attachment brackets to get a good fit. Cheaper and practical and way less work headache.

        The only solution which seems to satisfy function/safety/aesthetics/owner's sentiments/etcetera, seems to be the one I proposed, and that he's agreed to above. Which is to build a functional tank inside of the existing rusted-out shell.

        Happy trails
        b!
        • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

          Mon, April 14, 2008 - 10:28 AM
          Ciao Briggi,

          I was of your same exact opinion before reading a bit about the history of the F.B. Mondial brand (of which, my ignorance, I've never heard before). I thought F.B. Mondial was just one of the Italian many little manufacturers, but it looks like what he has is (at least historically) pretty valuable:
          FB-Mondial [1] was a motorcycle manufacturer from Milan, Italy between 1948 and 1979, known for its Grand Prix motorcycle racing successes during the 1950s. Prior to World War II, it manufactured delivery tricycles. The firm produced some of the most advanced and successful Grand Prix road racers of the time, winning 5 World Championships.
          ...
          Much of the production of each motorcycle was done by hand, which kept output low, with production numbers typically ranging between 1,000 and 2,000 units per year.
          ...
          The last all-Mondial motorcycle left the factory in 1960.
          ...
          In 1957, Soichiro Honda approached Mondial owner Count Boselli for purchase of a Mondial racebike, with which the firm had just won the 125 cc and 250 cc world titles. Count Boselli gave Mr. Honda a racing Mondial; Honda used this bike as a standard to which he aspired, in order to compete on a world-scale.
          An original Mondial 125 cc racebike is the first bike on display when entering Honda’s Motegi Collection Hall.





          Quoted from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond...ufacturer)
        • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

          Mon, April 14, 2008 - 10:30 AM
          Ciao Briggi,

          I was of your same exact opinion (not worth too much efforts) before reading a bit about the history of the F.B. Mondial brand (of which, my ignorance, I've never heard before). I thought F.B. Mondial was just one of the Italian many little manufacturers, but it looks like what he has is (at least historically) pretty valuable. Not to say that your solution was a bad idea though.

          FB-Mondial [1] was a motorcycle manufacturer from Milan, Italy between 1948 and 1979, known for its Grand Prix motorcycle racing successes during the 1950s. Prior to World War II, it manufactured delivery tricycles. The firm produced some of the most advanced and successful Grand Prix road racers of the time, winning 5 World Championships.
          ...
          Much of the production of each motorcycle was done by hand, which kept output low, with production numbers typically ranging between 1,000 and 2,000 units per year.
          ...
          The last all-Mondial motorcycle left the factory in 1960.
          ...
          In 1957, Soichiro Honda approached Mondial owner Count Boselli for purchase of a Mondial racebike, with which the firm had just won the 125 cc and 250 cc world titles. Count Boselli gave Mr. Honda a racing Mondial; Honda used this bike as a standard to which he aspired, in order to compete on a world-scale.
          An original Mondial 125 cc racebike is the first bike on display when entering Honda’s Motegi Collection Hall.





          Quoted from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mond...ufacturer)
          • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

            Mon, April 14, 2008 - 6:45 PM
            ciao
            I am made aware of the esoteric, yet noble lineage of this bella machina. If it were mine I would unhesitatingly do whatever was needed to make replacement with an original factory part out of respect for the marque. --It would without doubt enhance the desirability of this prestige collectible, while a backyard cowboy type fix would not. Nonetheless, I'd rather see the bike rolling again, any which way, than not. Let it's next owner bring it up to stock.
            ciao
            briggi
            • Re: repairing a rusted-out motorcycle gas tank

              Mon, April 14, 2008 - 10:13 PM
              The other option would to be have a new tank to factory spec fabricated. I think this particular machine finding a factory tank or OEM would be impossible... Also most of them were hand fabricated, so a replacement hand fabricated tank would not be far off.

              The DIY solution would be to obtain the requisite fabrication tools, hammers, shot bags, english wheel ect and fabricate one to spec. It may take a few months or even years to get a workable piece but hey think of all the other fun you could have with those tools and skill set.

              That really is part of the challenge of owning rare or old or unusual vehicles.

              JSin
  • Call a few local motorcycle mechanics.
    When I had a gas-tank leak, my mechanic coated the inside of the tank with a plastic resin that plugs all the cracks and holes when it dries. If that didn't work, he was ready to install a plastic bag as a liner, with holes at the gas cap and outlet. Both methods are standard repair kits that he had used a number of times before.

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