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outgassing

topic posted Tue, June 27, 2006 - 11:37 AM by  karin
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my sister recently purchased new cupboards for her remodeled kitchen. she just got the standard, regular-store cupboards, and so i'm thinking there's is going to be some outgassing...correct? is there a way she can minimize or neutralize this? also, she is putting pergo (sp?) down as her new floor..should she do anything to lessen the effects of that?

thanks~
k~
posted by:
karin
North Carolina
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: outgassing

    Tue, June 27, 2006 - 11:59 AM
    If they are new and made of particleboard under the veneer, then yes, you'll have formeldehyde fumes for a while, which are somewhat toxic and many people will have reactions to.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: outgassing

    Tue, June 27, 2006 - 1:32 PM
    Unless there is a hyper allergic person in the house you won't notice it at all.

    you get more from a new car. Lots and lots and lots more.
  • Re: outgassing

    Tue, June 27, 2006 - 7:52 PM
    if she's installing, its good to wear a mask when doing any cutting - breathing sawdust is never good, but especially bad when cutting formaldehyde and urea laced particle board.

    but cliffs right, once its installed, sure it will off-gas, but it will not be such a big deal. its summer, tell her to keep the windows cracked for a while.

    worth considering is that the stuff has been off-gassing since manufacture, wherever it has been before she bought it. if its sat for a while, its probably done its worst already.

    i do think this stuff is worth thinking about, a lot of building materials have some serious embedded toxicity.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: outgassing

    Wed, June 28, 2006 - 6:00 AM
    A while ago there was a thread on plywood, I posted the following about the glues:


    The glue people worry about is non-toxic when cured. It’s cured at the factory. Or stated in the colloquial: Don’t get your pennies in a bunch just yet because you have not been told the truth. People lie, stretch the truth, mis-contextualize or otherwise mislead others because for one reason or other it serves their interest and they are able to convince themselves that the ends justify the means.
    I prefer information. Lots and lots of information.
    Here is some:

    The three primary adhesives used in plywood are (1) protein and (2) phenol-formaldehyde and (3) urea-formaldehyde glues. Protein glue is extracted from plants and animals, and typical ingredients are water, dried blood, soy flour, lime, sodium silicate, caustic soda and a formaldehyde donor for thickening. The other two are synthetic, thermosetting glues. Urea-formaldehyde glues are synthetic thermosetting glues and often containing water, defoamers, extenders (wheat flour) and urea-formaldehyde resin. Phenol-formaldehyde resins are also synthetic thermosetting glues and typical ingredients include additives of caustic soda and soda ash.
    Because of water resistance protein and urea-formaldehyde used on interior applications and phenol-formaldehyde is used in exterior applications. Urea-formaldehyde is used
    almost exclusively in the cabinet grade hard plywood industry where panels are used for furniture and indoor paneling.

    The one glue that is likely to cause people the most concern is the urea-formaldehyde. Which as I just pointed out isn’t the one used in typical plywood application.

    The protein and phenol-formaldehyde glues are the ones you will see used most commonly, with phenol-formaldehyde as the more commonly used.

    Interestingly Phenol-formaldehyde in the material used to make Bakelite. Bakelite is the trade name for a high temperature plastic used on cookware as handles and knobs and on stove tops electrical device knobs etc. It’s also used in many industrial applications as it has a very low thermodynamic expansion rate. The generic name for Bakelite is Phenolic. Phenolic is made entirely from Phenol-formaldehyde and fillers such as flower other organic fibers and linen.

    Phenol-formaldehyde resin is a liquid that sets under high heat. Aqueous formaldehyde is added to solid phenol. Next glacial acetic acid is added. The mix is agitated. Hydrochloric acid is added and mixed. After a few minutes, the solution becomes cloudy and the red solid phenol-formaldehyde copolymer forms. The polymerization occurs by electrophilic aromatic substitution between the ortho and para positions of phenol and protonated formaldehyde. The resulting polymer is made by methylene bridges between phenol molecules.
    In this process the monomers are reacted and bonded.

    The toxicity of Phenol-formaldehyde resin is entirely dependant on the degree to which the un-reacted monomers persist.

    The presence of un-reacted monomers is one of the measuring criteria used to gage whether the batch is scrap or good. The monomers being a bad thing for product quality and performance.

    Here’s a link to the MSDS sheet on Phenol-formaldehyde resin:
    ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PH/...esin.html
    • Re: outgassing

      Thu, June 29, 2006 - 2:19 PM
      wow, thanks so much. i just passed it along to my sister.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: outgassing

        Thu, June 29, 2006 - 2:27 PM
        She might want to see something that isn't bullshit as well in case please show her the following:

        FORMALDEHYDE

        Formaldehyde, also known as formalin, formal, and methyl aldehyde, is a colorless liquid or gas with a pungent odor. It is generally known as a disinfectant, germicide, fungicide, defoamer, and preservative. Formaldehyde is found in adhesives, cosmetics, deodorants, detergents, dyes, explosives, fertilizer, fiber board, garden hardware, germicide, fungicide, foam insulation, synthetic lubricants, paints, plastic, rubber, textile, urethane resins, and water softening chemicals.
        Inhalation of vapors produces irritation to the eyes, nose, and throat and frequently results in upper respiratory tract irritation, coughing, and bronchitis. Asthma may occur in sensitive individuals. Severe exposure to fumes may lead to chemical pneumonia. Skin reactions after exposure to formaldehyde are very common because the chemical can be both irritating and allergy-causing. In addition, formaldehyde is involved in DNA damage and inhibits its repair.

        Formaldehyde is a suspected human carcinogen and has been shown to produce mutations and abnormal organisms in bacterial studies. Formaldehyde fumes are liberated from plywood, particleboard, and chipboard, as well as urea formaldehyde foam insulation. Symptoms associated with exposure to formaldehyde fumes include mucous membrane irritation, upper respiratory tract irritation, eye irritation, skin rashes, itching, nausea, stuffy nose, headaches, dizziness, and general fatigue.

        Toxicity is primarily related to the presence of formaldehyde gas. Toxicity may be relatively inconspicuous and nonspecific in nature. Patients suffering from formaldehyde toxicity have been misdiagnosed as having asthma, bronchitis, anxiety, depression, or hypochondria. Severe prolonged vomiting and diarrhea in infants may be related to chronic exposure to formaldehyde fumes. An individual may become sensitized to formaldehyde following repeated exposure to these fumes.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: outgassing

          Thu, June 29, 2006 - 2:29 PM
          Or this:

          Immediate Health Effects
          If SWALLOWED, formaldehyde is Very Highly Toxic.
          If ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN, formaldehyde is Highly Toxic.
          If INHALED (SNIFFED OR BREATHED IN), formaldehyde is Very Highly Toxic.

          Longterm or Delayed Health Effects
          This chemical is known to cause cancer. It is considered a Known Carcinogen by the World Health Organization, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, or another agency.
          Allergen
          Asthma Trigger

          Learn More About These Classifications

          Other
          Allergy like reactions, such as watery eyes, burning sensations in the eyes, nose and throat, stuffy nose, skin rashes. Allergic skin rashes and dermatitis may occur from skin contact with permanent-press clothing or other finishes that contain formaldehyde.
          Flu-like symptoms, headache, fatigue, nausea.
          Inhaling formaldehyde fumes can cause respiratory problems and asthma-like symptoms, such as breathlessness, shortness of breath, wheezing, coughing and/or chest tightness. Repeated exposures may cause bronchitis, with symptoms of cough and shortness of breath.
          Formaldehyde has been linked to a rare form of nasopharyngeal cancer and may also be linked to cancer of the nose and throat in humans. Test animals exposed to formaldehyde fumes have developed nasal cancer. Epidemiological studies show an association between formaldehyde and leukemia but scientists have not been able to show how this might occur. While the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has ranked formaldehyde a "probable" human carcinogen, the World Health Organization recently upgraded its classification to "known," concluding that formaldehyde "is carcinogenic to humans."
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: outgassing

            Thu, June 29, 2006 - 2:30 PM
            Fucking 'non-toxic' indeed. I'm never going to listen to any crap Cliff posts again. Fucking fuckhead saying fucking carcinogens are nontoxic. Fucking asshole asswipe piss ant retarded fuckwit..
            • Re: outgassing

              Thu, June 29, 2006 - 3:49 PM
              Uh, equating cured phenol-formaldehyde resin to pure formaldehyde is roughly equivalent to equating table salt (NaCl) to pure sodium (Na) and hlorine gas (Cl) .

              I'm not saying that outgassing of materials formulated with formaldehyde compounded resins should be dismissed out-of-hand, but "Fucking 'non-toxic' indeed. I'm never going to listen to any crap Cliff posts again. Fucking fuckhead saying fucking carcinogens are nontoxic. Fucking asshole asswipe piss ant retarded fuckwit.. "

              doesn't really advance this discussion along any rational lines.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: outgassing

                Wed, July 5, 2006 - 11:39 AM
                Trog's post was pretty funny.

                What about the DEADLY compounds CARBONE and OXYGEN. They must be HUGELY POISONOUS !!!!!!
                After all : Look at Carbon Monoxide. If that's deadly then they are all deadly right?

                C0 is deadly
                Co2 is just fine
                O is great
                C is great

                Wait a minute:

                Clause Barbie conducted tests using infants and salt. He fed common table salt to infants in large quanties and it killed 'em.
                They died horribly.
                Should we conclude that table salt is DEADLY?? run run table salt is deadly.
                Sadly, that is the logic invoked by way too many people.



            • Re: outgassing

              Thu, June 29, 2006 - 3:50 PM
              Uh, equating cured phenol-formaldehyde resin to pure formaldehyde is roughly equivalent to equating table salt (NaCl) to pure sodium (Na) and chlorine gas (Cl) .

              I'm not saying that outgassing of materials formulated with formaldehyde compounded resins should be dismissed out-of-hand, but "Fucking 'non-toxic' indeed. I'm never going to listen to any crap Cliff posts again. Fucking fuckhead saying fucking carcinogens are nontoxic. Fucking asshole asswipe piss ant retarded fuckwit.. "

              doesn't really advance this discussion along any rational lines.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: outgassing

                Thu, June 29, 2006 - 4:02 PM
                What part of
                "Formaldehyde fumes are liberated from plywood, particleboard, and chipboard, as well as urea formaldehyde foam insulation. Symptoms associated with exposure to formaldehyde fumes include mucous membrane irritation, upper respiratory tract irritation, eye irritation, skin rashes, itching, nausea, stuffy nose, headaches, dizziness, and general fatigue."
                didn't you understand?
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: outgassing

                  Thu, June 29, 2006 - 4:14 PM
                  I'm sure the fascists here (many accounts but one person) see the Consumer Product Safety Commission as just another communist plot.

                  But for those who aren't actively trying to cause harm to others, the Consumer Product Safety Commission page may be of interest:

                  www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/725.html

                  --

                  Formaldehyde levels in the indoor air depend mainly on what is releasing the formaldehyde (the source), the temperature, the humidity, and the air exchange rate (the amount of outdoor air entering or leaving the indoor area). Increasing the flow of outdoor air to the inside decreases the formaldehyde levels. Decreasing this flow of outdoor air by sealing the residence or office increases the formaldehyde level in the indoor air.

                  As the temperature rises, more formaldehyde is emitted from the product. The reverse is also true; less formaldehyde is emitted at lower temperature. Humidity also affects the release of formaldehyde from the product. As humidity rises more formaldehyde is released.

                  The formaldehyde levels in a residence change with the season and from day-to-day and day-to-night. Levels may be high on a hot and humid day and low on a cool, dry day. Understanding these factors is important when you consider measuring the levels of formaldehyde.

                  Some sources-such as pressed wood products containing urea-formaldehyde glues, urea-formaldehyde foam insulation, durable-press fabrics, and draperies-release more formaldehyde when new. As they age, the formaldehyde release decreases.

                  ...

                  4. Pressed wood products: Pressed wood products, especially those containing urea-formaldehyde glues, are a source of formaldehyde. These products include particleboard used as flooring underlayment, shelves, cabinets, and furniture; hardwood plywood wall panels; and medium density fiberboard used in drawers, cabinets and furniture. When the surfaces and edges of these products are unlaminated or uncoated they have the potential to release more formaldehyde. Manufacturers have reduced formaldehyde emissions from pressed wood products by 80-90% from the levels of the early 1980s.
                  ...
                  There are several formaldehyde-related symptoms, such as watery eyes, runny nose, burning sensation in the eyes, nose, and throat, headaches and fatigue. These symptoms may also occur because of the common cold, the flu or other pollutants that may be present in the indoor air. If these symptoms lessen when you are away from home or office but reappear upon your return, they may be caused by indoor pollutants, including formaldehyde. Examine your environment. Have you recently moved into a new or different home or office? Have you recently remodeled or installed new cabinets or furniture? Symptoms may be due to formaldehyde exposure. You should contact your physician and/or state or local health department for help. Your physician can help to determine if the cause of your symptoms is formaldehyde or other pollutants.

                  ETC.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Ben
                    Ben
                    offline 2

                    Re: outgassing

                    Sun, July 2, 2006 - 10:14 PM
                    Trog,
                    Your last post did seem to be a bit more .... um ...... thought (?) out. If you want people to listen to you, it's always good to have thought through it first. If, instead, you come across as someone holding their hands over their ears and screaming how everyone is out to get you, it's unlikely that you'll have any beneficial effect. Blaming the facists/communists/aliens/witches or any other ambiguous group seems to require no proof and is an easy cop-out for low-wattage individuals. I'm sure you're none of these, based on some of your other posts, and you likely only need a good night sleep and perhaps a cold shower.

                    If you read the article you quoted, the main substance of concern was urea-formaldehyde. If you read Cliff's post, you'll see that he mentioned that that substance is the one to be concerned about, and then proceeded talking about a different substance that is now commonly used in plywood (the original context of that message, posted in another thread). You're talking about two completely different things. I'd suggest you read through the article you quoted really well, then think 'how much relevance does this have?' How much of veneered cabinetry is uncoated? Is the article talking primarily about reactions to the levels occasionally produced in the 1980's, now, or when sniffing the formaldehyde jar? It doesn't clearly say, and at times, it seems to go back and forth bewteen these without clarifying this.

                    If you want to trully nail someone up against the door (not a veneered one, hopefully), then you should cite some resource specifying formaldehyde levels outgassing from currently manufactured cabinetry - preferably something fairly reliable and easy to check up on. Then, check to see what kind of concentration this results in in a standard room (heck, in a tiny room), with standard levels of ventalation, and finally check the toxicity risk in this.

                    Everyone else was very justified in pointing out the salt / chlorine gas mistake, especially given the seeming disregard to chemsitry you had been giving the topic. Urea-formaldehyde is much more unstable than a phenol-based formaldehyde, possibly degrading to give off formaldehyde gas. As Cliff said (if you read carefully), improper curing can lead to some dangerous monomers (which just means single component, possibly meaning formaldehyde) leaching out. This'll also have the effect of the glue not doing its sticking job so well, causing shotty materials - hence his comments about being used as a measure for quality control.

                    So, though I'm sure you'll never buy anything with glue in it, if you do, don't buy it from someone selling it from the trunk of their car for a few cents. After you buy it from somewhere decent, if you're still nervous, buy a bunch of ferns and open your windows wide. Even if you are highly allergic to formaldehyde, you'll probably not even notice a thing (other than you house is cold and full of ferns).
                    • Re: outgassing

                      Mon, July 3, 2006 - 5:55 PM
                      I know a lot of people who are sensitive to particle board, pressed wood and some plywoods. I'd recommend people do the sniff test before buying. I have known people who actually got really sick from installing particle board bookcases with a laminate or veneer layer on top.

                      People who are sensitive to these materials are the canary in the coal mine, you know.
                      • Ben
                        Ben
                        offline 2

                        Re: outgassing

                        Mon, July 3, 2006 - 6:39 PM
                        True enough. Some people are really sensitive to a variety of things, and a sniff test is really a good idea. Just spending some time in a showroom (ideally crowded with veneered furnature). That's probably a good rule of thumb for many people when encountering a new type of product. I suppose some may have reactions to components in the varnish or paint on some objects as well.

                        Canaries are particularly unlucky animals, hey? Aparently overheating teflon pans can do them in as well.
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: outgassing

                          Wed, July 5, 2006 - 11:30 AM
                          I read the tests on PTFE and canaries. They burnt the shit out of a whol lot of pans in a closed space and all at once.
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              Re: outgassing

              Wed, July 5, 2006 - 11:31 AM
              ******Fucking 'non-toxic' indeed. I'm never going to listen to any crap Cliff posts again. Fucking fuckhead saying fucking carcinogens are nontoxic. Fucking asshole asswipe piss ant retarded fuckwit..********

              C'mon Trog tell us how you really feel.
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                Re: outgassing

                Wed, July 5, 2006 - 3:58 PM
                Actually I like Cliff a lot, maybe too much. I am speaking from my passion.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: outgassing

              Wed, July 5, 2006 - 12:00 PM
              "Fucking 'non-toxic' indeed. I'm never going to listen to any crap Cliff posts again. Fucking fuckhead saying fucking carcinogens are nontoxic. Fucking asshole asswipe piss ant retarded fuckwit.."

              Nice. Well I'd read your posts more if they were less emotional, you didn't respond to your own posts immediately so there are a couple of your posts in a row, and you spoke more from personal experience instead of cutting and pasting huge pieces of text. The level of toxicity in new cupboards doesn't really seem to warrant this emotional of an outburst.

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