REal electrical advice please?

topic posted Sun, April 12, 2009 - 1:15 PM by  Thorn
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OK= for well, EVER i have been wanting to install a ceiling light - it seems like this should be relatively simple, just a couple of wires from somewhere on a wall outlet run up through some conduit to the ceiling-
but i don't know if this is correct, safe, or really anything, i'm totally guessing here=
any help or better, a web link to a step by step?

i do have access to my circuit breakers to shut things off, and I am not worried about my landlord caring about the holes ill drill or whatever, they are very cool, especially when it comes to improvements....

anyway besides that it is killing me to use crappy lamps in my computer room where i desperately need an overhead light, i just got a fantastic piece of art that MUST be lit up ...
(oh if you want to see the print i am lighting , here's a link, i had been wanting this piece forever and got it as a gift hooray!
www.postershop.com/Aagaard-...0264.html
posted by:
Thorn
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  • Re: REal electrical advice please?

    Sun, April 12, 2009 - 1:19 PM
    I haven't had much luck using overhead lights for task lighting. They are never in the right spot and don't provide bright enough light for me. I use an Ott light for my reading, crafting and computer work.
  • Re: REal electrical advice please?

    Sun, April 12, 2009 - 2:02 PM
    OK Thorn,
    I am an electrician among other things and there is a reason that both the electrical and plumbing trades are licenced. You can die on the job. In New South Wales Australia in 2000, while one cop died in the line of duty, getting a bridge and car named after him, a state funeral and a full pension for his widow, eight electricians also died on the job. They got nothing.
    Installing a ceiling light is not as simple as you would have it be. If you are in a standard Californian Bungalow (brick & tile - single level residence), then usually, the installation will take a day for two people. This is the easiest installation.
    My advice to you is that first thing first. Get your insurance up to date and your Will prepared and signed by a JP. Secondly, get an eye check. Make sure your not colour blind. An error in connecting the wrong wires can have a deadly effect. A man had an old metal drill and an old extension lead. He replaced the plug on the lead when he ran over it with his car a couple of months before he wanted to install a ceiling light. He needed to drill a hole in the timber to get the cable to the spot he wanted to put the switch. He went into the ceiling and didn't come out again. He lived alone and his body wasn't found for three days.
    I'm pretty sure that your landlord would draw the line at you doing electrical work as his/her insurance wouldn't cover it. If you are injured or killed doing renovations on his/her property, then he/she goes to gaol (jail). And just to add insult to injury, your insurance may not pay up as you were performing an illegal act at the time of your death and your parents may be hit with the bill. So check with them if it's OK.
    Working with electricity is like having an invisible pet crocodile, the chances of you surviving a bight from it is fifty/fifty at best.
    Electricity and gas is for professionals. Under no circumstances touch it. It will kill you and the death is not instantaneous.
    And finally, conduit work in an apartment is NOT an improvement.
    • Re: REal electrical advice please?

      Wed, April 22, 2009 - 3:17 PM
      With proper precautions gerald. Electricity is not always fatal. the fear tactics do nothing but act as an attempt to maintain the status of your trade. They are licensed to maintain that as well and your unions spend a butt load to make sure it is kept as difficult as possible.

      Color test... For residential? It is not like he is shooting 16 circuits through conduit. Ya got 3 colors and a bare at the most... Even a color blind person can tell black white and red. Bare copper pretty easy.

      The insurance... Not a bad idea anyway. Permission from the landlord definitely.

      Install a day for 2 people...Wow... You must be a pretty poor electrician. it is a day at the most for a handyman with any skills. That is if i have to channel and patch the sheetrock. Generally I can notch and drop. That makes it a couple hours on the outside including having it ready for texture once the patch dries. Hot mud can make the whole thing go in about 3 hours.

      50/50 on a hit. You were not taught well then... you never use both hands on a hot hookup. <this keeps it from crossing your heart> Keep a hand in your pocket and do not wear metal jewelry on your hands or wrists. Use insulated tools. get a rubber mat to stand on. These are basic rules if you are licensed you know this. I never recommend homeowners with minimal training try a hot hook-up. But they are done and done safely all the time.

      The reality of electrical work at some point you are gonna get bit. You might get bit hard. If it does not cross the heart it may be painful but quite survivable.

      JSin
  • Re: REal electrical advice please?

    Sun, April 12, 2009 - 3:24 PM
    It's not rocket science. I've done all the electrical renovation on all the homes I've owned.
    Have you googled around? There's shit loads of pictorial tutorials on the web.
    I'd take that route first as it helps top have a visual of what you need to do.
    While you are at it you might want to run a whole new breaker circuit for the PC and the lamp.


    • Re: REal electrical advice please?

      Sun, April 12, 2009 - 5:56 PM
      One thought on saving some time about getting it placed right>>

      First of all determine the exact fixed position of the lamp so that the piece gets spotlighted in a way that works for you.... before hardwiring it in. And you can determine this position by taking a clamp type spot lamp hooked up to a long extension cord. Clamp the light onto the end of a 2x4. Move the 2x4 around with the lamp up near the ceiling noting light effects from various places until you've found the right spot to put the lamp. Then do the wiring.
      • Re: REal electrical advice please?

        Mon, April 13, 2009 - 6:23 PM
        uh- holy cow gerard
        job security issue?

        this is no way that complicated electrically, the biggest prob is the painting/ drywall repair that might be needed

        (now i'll read the other less paranoid posts)
        • Re: REal electrical advice please?

          Mon, April 13, 2009 - 6:30 PM
          ok duh- i think the word i needed was tutorial for my search thanks Cliff and Yes Briggi very good advice, i will do a test run on position,
          thanks

          ok hopefully i find tutorial on google somewhere

          i mean geez its two wires and a breaker, not that big a deal, i dunno what gerard is going crazy about.
          the landlord has replaced my outside porch overhead light a few times (but of course htey never seem ot get it fixed permanently i tihkn theres a water leak in that one, im not messing with it since i odnt have access to those breakers), i ve seen it done, i think a 7 year old could avoid electrocution in this task
          • Re: REal electrical advice please?

            Mon, April 13, 2009 - 6:32 PM
            oh yeah, i guess better run out to the eye doctor right away too...

            geeeeeeeez
            • Re: REal electrical advice please?

              Mon, April 13, 2009 - 8:27 PM
              Libraries normaly keep home building and home maintenance books like Time-Life, or Audels or others, having step by step illustrated guides to wiring or plumbing or ... whatever. Although not always on the web.
              • Re: REal electrical advice please?

                Thu, April 16, 2009 - 11:48 AM
                ***********Libraries normaly keep home building and home maintenance books like Time-Life, or Audels or others, having step by step illustrated guides to wiring or plumbing or ... whatever. Although not always on the web.************

                Sunset books Remember them? I think I may still have one or two.
  • Me
    Me
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    Re: REal electrical advice please?

    Wed, April 15, 2009 - 9:30 PM
    My Fiance is an electrician, and I can guarantee that is doesn't take a day and two electricians to put in a ceiling fan. Although as an 'amateur' getting someone to help isn't a bad idea, you might need someone to hold up the fan while you are securing it to the ceiling.

    I am sure that you can do it Thorn, you've already mentioned the most important part...turn the breakers off. But I do have a comment: one ceiling fan most likely will not solve your lighting problem. It's a great source for overall lighting, but if you plan to do any 'projects' in the room you most likely will still need your lamps. Some ceiling fans come with clear-like covers for the light, which offer more direct lighting, but overall they just give a nice glow to the room. Another option is can lights, or recessed lighting. These offer more direct lightening and offer a solution to 'shadow' problems that can happen when a single fixture is located in the middle of the room causing your body to shadow over the 'project'. These are not hard either, just takes more time.

    There are only a few times electrical work gets tricky, some include: replacing breakers, rewiring through out the house or in places such as the kitchen where there are many large items that might be working at the same time.

    Go for it!
  • Re: REal electrical advice please?

    Fri, April 17, 2009 - 5:55 AM
    It is fairly simple to put in a ceiling light.

    the problem is making it look like a real electrician did it, so make sure you do a sloppy job as if it is too neat, it will be spotted a mile off. BTDT.

    In Australia, ceiling lights generally, AFAIK, run off a separate circuit with the live feed jumping from light socket to light socket, at the light socket, the supply neutral is wired in and the supply active is fed into a dual core that runs to and from the light switch, then the switched active is wired into the socket(s0 you are switching.

    Yes, we have lots of regs in Australia, but that doesn't save people from bad wiring installed by electricians, but if a lcensed (state revenue) electrician does it, then whatever happens, you are covered by your insurance.

    BTW, I live near that bridge named after the cop. Nothing special, come to Campbelltown, get killed and have something named after you. A town of total loser further cements is reputation by naming public features after total non-entities.
    • Re: REal electrical advice please?

      Fri, April 17, 2009 - 6:21 AM
      In USA you can run 2 wires, a hot wire and a ground, straight from the junction box out to your fixture. Just remove the little screw-on wire-end holder and twist in your new set of wires. All the rest is cosmetic> how neatly the job is done, if the wires are fished in behind the wall or on the surface, how well the ceiling fixture is secured to a hardpoint, and soforth, is up to the skill of the installer. Technically you need a licensedd electrician to sign off on the job, but basically no one bothers.

      Australia is a much more disciplined place. You gotta love it.
      • Re: REal electrical advice please?

        Fri, April 17, 2009 - 7:01 AM
        ************Technically you need a licensedd electrician to sign off on the job, but basically no one bothers. **************

        Is that a State issue?

        Here in NJ and in Maine and Mass where I've rebuilt houses all I did was get a permit, have the code inspectors come by and issue a certificate. They usually want two inspections the rough when every thing is exposed and the final when they can flip the power on and see if the place burns to the ground . I have met a variety of inspectors. Some were tradesmen who decided they wanted an easier life and others were just guys who pass the state exam and got the job. Some are smart and others are lunatics who haven't even the remotest clue what they are talking about.

        I recall on electrical inspector who while examining some wiring rough in commented on the little loop just before a wire passed into a hole bored through 2x4s. He said that were it not for the little loop he'd have flunked the job. Now I knew that there was no code on that. He was just making stupid shit up as he went along.
        So I asked him ( tongue in cheek): "Is that because if the turn is tight the electrons may fall off the wire?"
        He said: "Yes."
        I kept my mouth shut after that figuring that this guy was too stupid to even try to talk to: just get my Cert' and wave good bye.
        • Re: REal electrical advice please?

          Fri, April 17, 2009 - 8:10 AM
          In this state, Utah, you can do home repair/maintenance/building yourself, and when your work goes up to get an inspection, then the bonded/licensed electrician looks at it first so you can get a permit.... just so everybody's ass is covered, if you know what I mean.

          In the case of a homeowner adding one additional outlet or an additional ceiling light, after the fact, there is rarely any thought of the voluntary leaping of beauraeucratic hoops if you can help it.
          • Re: REal electrical advice please?

            Fri, April 17, 2009 - 11:57 AM
            ps- the ceiling light is not a project specific light, just for general room light, cerruntly the one lamp up on a shelf i have is not worthy- i'm just looking to brighten the whole room up, for the way it works in the rest of my apt, it's what i want. really annoying we have ceiling lights in all rooms but the bedrooms- there just one outlet is hooked to a switch on wall.

            i guess to do it right i should figure out how to hook the switch to the overhead light and return the outlet to unswitched, which sounds like i'll need new outlet boxes= would i be able to find an outlet box that would serve as the "junction box "??
            seems likely
            • Re: REal electrical advice please?

              Fri, April 17, 2009 - 11:59 AM
              after i get a regular ceiling light into one room, then i will try a more task-specific lighting for my art piece, i have a special light and placement for that, first i am jsut trying to figure out the wiring
              ok i look for tutorial now
              • Re: REal electrical advice please?

                Fri, April 17, 2009 - 12:08 PM
                a HA= here's an excellent bit i got from an ACE diy site

                CONNECT NEW WIRING TO LAST OUTLET IN CABLE

                * New wiring should be connected to the last outlet in a run of cable. To locate the last outlet in the run, shut off the current. Remove the cover plates from each outlet on the circuit. The last outlet in the run has wires connected to only two of the four terminal screws (see image).
                * The two unused terminal screws on the last receptacle serve as a starting point for wiring to a new outlet.
        • Re: REal electrical advice please?

          Fri, April 17, 2009 - 11:59 AM
          thanks agian guys- Briggi, yAH SEEING HOW A NEW CEILING LIGHT FIXTURE ONLY HAS TWO WIRES, (damn caps) should be relatively simple, for my apt., there are only a few circuits, seems like one for eaxh room, and the present ceiling lights are just on the room circuits
          i guess i need to open the outlet in the wall and see if it has any junctions on it, or get one that does if not becasue i am not running an extra circuit all he way from the breaker box..

          PERMITS= heheh yeah, here we most likely need something like that but screw it, kinda the way things are here. I know in Oakland the next town over, you need a frikkin permit for ANY type of drywall work, the taxes are endless.... whatever.
          bathroom needs redoing, we do it, etc, not going to worry about the permit part.
          • Re: REal electrical advice please?

            Fri, April 17, 2009 - 12:21 PM
            BTW if it is only 2 wires it sounds suspiciously like knob and tube. If it is then make sure you have the polarity right, Often the white <neutral> will become very discolored with age. It is also a very good idea to get a mini tick meter
            www.toolsforstagecraft.com/n318.htm

            scroll down a bit and you can see a pic. You can get them at any big box and religious use will keep you from getting bit.

            JSin
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: REal electrical advice please?

              Fri, April 17, 2009 - 1:31 PM
              Lots of bad information in this thread, I'm in agreement with several of geralds points (like hire a professional as the OP appears to not have a clue)

              I've read nothing about a switch here, which is needed if you plan on shutting the light off from time to time. You cant just tap off an outlet for several reasons. You must determine the load already on that circuit, you will have no way to shut it off unless you use a pull string fixture (they look real nice in livingrooms), and it is not in compliance with the NEC. Any one of those things would cause a homeowners company to NOT cover an electrical fire even if it were caused by faulty wiring elsewhere in the dwelling.

              If you do have a circuit that can take another light (and with no skills or equipment I dont know how you could possibly tell) the power must flow from the outlet, to the switch, then to the light. Everything must also be properly anchored, strain relieved, and grounded.

              My advice, check the yellow pages. At least if someone else burns the house down you'll have someone to sue when the homeowners says go pound salt.
              • Re: REal electrical advice please?

                Sun, April 19, 2009 - 9:20 AM
                Angie, again this tribe is about do-it-yourself,... rather than hire-a-guy-to-do-it-for-you. If you're too scared to do it yourself, then you need to be in a tribe like How To Be Your Own Home-Contractor Tribe. Although you can't fault those electricians for cautioning us to be careful. That part is good advice.

                Thorn, the permit you need is permission from your landlord. It's his place and his property and you need his OK before altering or changing things around. First look at your rental agreement and undoubtedly there will be a clause outlining the parammeters of possible changes to be undertaken by tenants. You could be liable for damages if the landlord chooses to take your modifications in that light.
                .... On the other hand, if you present your ceiling light project to him as an improvement that enhances the value of the premises, he may even deduct the cost of the improvement from your rental fee, or even pay for materials... or who knows?... even pay for a bonafide electrical guy to do it.

                You can branch off a couple wires from an existing on-off switch box, or a plug-in box. The wires can be #14 sheathed wire paired into one cable like Romex which you can tack to the baseboard and run up the walls to the ceiling in a surface run .... maybe within a piece of hollow molding for the sake of neat appearance. Make sure your ceiling lamp is secured to a reliable hardpoint like a joist or framing member. A light switch is basically a circuit-interruptor. You can install a switch box at a convenient point along the light's wiring run.
                Conversely, I wouldn't bother to dig a channel into the wallboard to run the wiring into and then cover it over... messy and time-consuming and probably more labor than you want to get into..

                Let us know how it goes.
                • Re: REal electrical advice please?

                  Sun, April 19, 2009 - 12:09 PM
                  i'm surprised nobody has yet to mention running finish grade surface conduit. The stuff I've installed in rentals is easy to install and doesn't look all that bad when done right. It's a little pricey, but convenient. For this instance all ya would need is the conduit, a stand-out box to tap into an existing outlet, one for the switch, another for the light and a corner piece or three (plus wire, light switch, light, nuts and screws/anchors) ...easy peasy.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: REal electrical advice please?

                    Sun, April 19, 2009 - 12:50 PM
                    well since i need to repaint anyway, i was thinking of ripping open the wall- as far as the lanlord, well- i ripped out the tile, actually the rotted wall behind it too, re seated the toilet, tiled the floor in bathroom- and told them afterwards... it's very cool here as far as permission goes..

                    i don't think i want the finishing grade conduit but i do know what you mean- actually that might be the solution for one of my light sets, thanks..

                    also found an excellent tutorial- i already know from what can be plugged in the cicuit can handle the load of a lamp, and i see how i just need to find the last box in the room to string off of- i hadn't mentioned the swtich cuz hte lamps i have currently have their own switches on them, but i may decide to go with a light that needs a switch for the overhead, again seems relatively simple..

                    i don't have one of those tick things but i do have a decent multimeter (actually two), and the obvious, the circuit box so i can be sure all power is off....

                    also during this time i have taken apart and re wired a lamp - no problem.
                    • Re: REal electrical advice please?

                      Tue, April 21, 2009 - 6:38 AM
                      If the lamp fixture you buy does not have a ground wire ( bare or green sheath) you will still need to run the bare ground wire from the romex or other cabling you install to the metal box of the fixture.

                      When installing the switch: hook it up so the switch interrupts the hot (black) wire not the neutral (white) wire.

                      • Re: REal electrical advice please?

                        Tue, April 21, 2009 - 3:50 PM
                        Many movable plug-in lamps lack the 3-way prong, but if your lamp has this feature, then you have the option of wiring direct to green/earth/ground as well as pos/black & neg/white direct from the lamp itself, deleting the plug-in cord the lamp came with. If however, the lamp you want to mount has only a two prong plug, then an earth/ground can be established by drilling a small hole into the body of the lamp and turning in a self-tapping machine screw to act as earth/ground wire securing point.

                        Most industrial level appliances, and most appliances made for permanent fixi in place will have provision for the ground wire. It is code in most hardwiring cases. Although countless people have been plugging in lamps with only a two-way prong for a hundred years without much happening differently.
                        • Re: REal electrical advice please?

                          Tue, April 21, 2009 - 9:28 PM
                          I would advise against a ceiling fan for a light source. If you want a good work/display light, I would recommend a dual 4' bulb flourecsent T-12 or T-8 fixture. If you want a ceiling fan in a work space, my recommendation is to use a non-illuminted fan. You can put CFLs in your illuminated fan to get comparable light output, but the vibrations can wreck them pretty quick.

                          And yea, the paranoia is a little overboard. We're not talking about a 3-phase 100 amp circuit. I have worked with more electrical circuits in my life than I could possibly remember and I've been shocked three times. Once was sticking my finger in an open outlet box at the age of 5 another was spark plug #2 on a Ford 302 and the third was by a 2400 watt audio amplifier. They all had their own unique flavor. :P zap!!
  • Re: REal electrical advice please?

    Wed, April 22, 2009 - 8:04 AM
    .


    Hey Thorn a little harsh on gerard there.

    you asked for advice. you got advice.
    what I read, was his advice to use caution.

    caution is never a bad thing.
    whether he overstated it is up to interpretation.
    BUT... how irresponsible would it be of this board (as a collective) to not have a voice of caution expressing itself?
    or for us to shun it, it try to shut it down, or to embarrass it into not speaking again?

    Honestly, when it comes to the issues of electricity, I never post advice here, cause you don't know what kind of ying-yang-yahoo might be asking for it?
    they might go and get themselves hurt.
    a little bit of knowledge is a bad thing right?


    Anyway... thats the thing with advice...
    we don't *have* to listen to it... and often... when we ask for advice we only accept what we feel good about... what we already expect to hear... no?
    so, when we really want to do something... and we get advice from someone who says you shouldn't do it... *THEY* are just an idiot...



    ...jus my opinion, and I am perfectly comfortable being wrong if it turns out that way...



    .

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