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Hi,
Any of you folks have experience with wind power. I am considering a hybrid system (wind/solar). I am on the grid but have plans to build some cabins on the back portion of the property, or at least have a significant amount of power be generated by nature.
Love to hear your views.
thanks
Any of you folks have experience with wind power. I am considering a hybrid system (wind/solar). I am on the grid but have plans to build some cabins on the back portion of the property, or at least have a significant amount of power be generated by nature.
Love to hear your views.
thanks
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Re: wind power
Tue, March 10, 2009 - 7:52 AMThe cheapest and most do-able is water power.
If you have a fast running stream or the ability to build a water fall you can build a wheel that can power a serious generator.
Wind and solar are somewhat expensive on the front end and tend not to lend themselves to budget DIY efforts. -
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Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 6:06 AMI forgot to mention that if you start mucking about with any water flow there is a fair chance that your states EPA will lose their minds of they find out. The Ever oPressive Authority has it's own ideas about what you are and are not allowed to do on your own land and they don't even have to stop off at the legislature to get their rules voted on before sending you to prison.
If you are planning a water works project be sure to talk to local counsel first or the state EPA and whoever else in the state Government that regulates waterways. It's almost a sure bet that Fish and Game will have their fingers in your pie too.
Just to let you know how ugly it can get:
I had a client, a nice woman in a rural state, in a more rural part of that rural state. Her husband had recently died leaving her the Dairy farm to tend all by herself. One night she heard a ruckus in the barn where the cows were.
She went out with her husbands deer rifle to see what it was.
A black bear had got in and was tearing into a new calf.
she shot and killed it.
Then in the morning not knowing what else to do she called fish and game to inquire what she should do with the big dead bear.
They propsecuted her:
Hunting out of season
Hunting without a license
Failure to dress and preserve the meat and hide within the mandatory time limit required by law.
They were going to send her to prison.
It cost her Fifty Thousand Dollars to get out from under all those criminal charges.
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Unsu...
Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 7:13 AMThis sounds like urban legend. You sure you are not bullshitting us?
not that I doubt the feds can be like this. I've represented enough clients before OSHA to know. -
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Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 7:51 AMOk, I'm with Old man on this.
And any water way alteration comes under the authority of the Army Corps of Engineers. As do all power producing damns and alterations to water flow for the purpose of power generation. not the EPA. They ( epa) also have their concerns but only under certain situations do their rules apply. Either way, it's doubtful you'd ever hear from them , doing something for your own non commercial use, on your own land. Unless someone made a big stink over it.
I had to work with the Corps in my landscape construction bizz. -
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Unsu...
Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 9:38 AMIf your build a little dam on your property to operate a water powered mill, and the construction process pollutes your neighbors downstream, you may well hear from the EPA or the state's equivalent.
Lance Armstrong found out about that the hard way in the hill country near Austin. He built a dam on his creek, ruined the delicate eco-systems down stream, and is having to deal with complaints or actions brought by the affected parties.
If you build something on a navigable water way, yeah, you'll have to deal with the Corps of Engineers, too, or the local governmental authority that has jurisdiction, such as a river authority. -
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Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 10:06 AMTypical household pupose hydropower should not have to include massive restructuring nor re-engineering natural water systems. What it boils down to is sticking a small water-feed turbine into the moving water. People have been known to juice a water impeller out of an old washing machine and successfully use that as a motive device. This application would have a negligable to extremely low impact.
If required, one could dig out a side channel from the main flow, dedicated to moving your turbine. I'm not sure of the rules on this, but small is beautiful.
As to bears coming around eating up your house? Shoot first, and ask about it later.
I don't care what the rules are... there exists a more basic law of survival and of protecting your loved ones and possessions from harm, that supercedes any kind of local governmental paperwork protocols.
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Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 10:21 AMIn support of Cliff's advice to tread carefully when building dams
www.snopes.com/humor/letters/dammed.asp -
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Unsu...
Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 12:30 PMThat is so typical of government officials when they threaten fines or issue fines.
They can never admit they were wrong. Ever.
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Re: wind power
Tue, March 10, 2009 - 9:56 AMI recently flipped through a book called something like "diy sustainability for urban living" by stacy something and scott pettigrew of the rhizome collective in austin. They had some info on making your own wind turbines, as well as lots of other really amazing good ideas.
I personally, do not have experience with it, besides listening to my neighbor's turbine scream every time there's a strong wind (which is everyday).
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Re: wind power
Tue, March 10, 2009 - 10:50 AM -
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Re: wind power
Tue, March 10, 2009 - 12:04 PM....windpower practical only when there's a steady wind or at least breeze daily or at least every other day. More than 3 days lull in wind and batteries have run down flat. Around here wind goes for about 3 days straignt, and then dies pleasantly for a week or more at a time.... you wait and wait glancing at your generator blades for signs of the slightest motion 6 times a day.
Moving surface water on-land like brook, creek, stream, allows hydro power.
if your setting is like mine then solar is the only option.
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Unsu...
Re: wind power
Tue, March 17, 2009 - 8:30 PMWind power is viable in places like the high mesas in West Texas, where the winds blow strong and frequent. These are places were few people want to live. The wind used to be considered a curse. Now it is a blessing, but still no one wants to live there.
Unless you also live in one of these god forsaken desolate places that the wind rips through most of the time, you will lose money on the existing wind technology.
Now, a DIY could always build a windmill to generate some electricity, just for fun or experimentation, but unless the wind rips through your homestead on a frequent basis, this isn't going to amount to more than a hobby or an experiment. -
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Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 3:50 AMOTOH*, one may invest in erecting a windmill alongside the PV array, so as to reap the benefits of either/both systems, and thus cover whatever weather has in store.
*On The Other Hand -
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Unsu...
Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 5:48 AMI don't mean to discourage anyone from building a windmill. If you want to be self sufficient and get off the grid, any alternative energy you can exploit is a good thing. But I am saying if you are doing it to save money, unless where you live is very windy, you probably won't recoup your investment, at least not for a very long time.
I would be delighted if someone would prove me wrong about that. I would be delighted to learn that there are cheap and cost effective windmills the DIY can errect to conserve energy. -
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Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 10:22 AMTalking cheap & effective?
... a junked 18-wheeler's alternator hooked to a propellor, mounted in a tower assembled of scrapmetal channel iron.
Finding a reasonably priced used propellor is the hard part... a perfectly balanced and aerodynamically effective propellor being essential. -
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Re: wind power
Tue, March 24, 2009 - 6:23 AM************Talking cheap & effective?
... a junked 18-wheeler's alternator hooked to a propellor, mounted in a tower assembled of scrapmetal channel iron.**********
Yup. That'll do it.
I don't know how well it'll work if it's a direct drive as opposed to one that drives the alternator faster than the wind turbine axle. As for drive components: There is nothing in the world of drive components so efficient as flat steel belting. Flat web belting is pretty good but steel is best bar none. V belts consume about 10% of the power generated at each pulley pairing, Gears about 5% flat steel belts about 1%.
********Finding a reasonably priced used propellor is the hard part... a perfectly balanced and aerodynamically effective propellor being essential.**********
You can make a perfectly good prop (good enough to drive your airplane) by hand. Get some boards ( Hardwood) plane 'em dead flat. Drill a hole in the center of each. Glue (Titebond III or other waterproof glue) them together using a tight fitting bolt in that center hole. Make them fan out like little stairs. Make the fanning spacing dead even for each board. Clamp it all together Then when the glue is cured take a rasp and a hand plane to the assembly and strip away the stair steps revealing the really efficient propeller underneath.
Now if you did this on a really large scale you might want to lighten it. You can copat the prop with a good paint and then use it to make your clamshell mold so you can build a bog mold in which you can make your own hollow body fiberglass propellers. -
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Re: wind power > don't screw with the windscrew
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 11:43 PMPropellors look deceptively easy to build, but are really really hard to make. NACA (forerunner of NASA) spent countless engineering hours of the first 50 years of the 20th century developing airfoils, pitch,chord, length-width ratio geometry, and so on, in order to get effective propellors on American airplanes.
The propellor is one of the most expensive single replacement parts in any windpower system, and with a reason.
Making a practical propellor is more than simply popping open a can of spinach, gulping it, and then spending 2 minutes of frantic fast forward time whittling on a log with a swiss knife in order to come up with something that'll fly.
Got a month?.......
, plenty of quality hardwood, and the patience of Job? Try very tediously utilizing templates, calipers, & plenty measuring just to get ONE blade right. Then comes getting the opposite blade to rhyme with precision to the first. Consider all the measuring, shaving a bit here, re-measuring, finding you've removed too much, then having to revise the first part, then ... well you get the picture. Making a mold of a perfectly formed blade in order to produce it's twin is possible... using fiberglass technology. And even then you'll need to apply small wights to get balance. Only this would still require more time/energy/dedication/skill than is possessed by the average DIY Joe.
......Anyway, lot's of specialized equipment required, as found in an aerospace plant.
>>Not a DIY project.
Just as you'd routinely balance your tires when mounting a new set, a propellor needs to have it's blades balanced with each other to within a few grams of criticality. I've seen a poorly balanced prop shake a wind generator to death, vibration like you wouldn't believe, enough to make shrapnel of bearings, brushes & commutator following a day or two of unregulated unstoppable windy RPM.
The eccentric oscilation off a homemade piece of crap will make short work of any but the most bombproof wind generator system. No, a prop is something you buy, not make.
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Re: wind power
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 7:09 PMWind power is practical anywhere you can fly a kite.
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Unsu...
Re: wind power
Thu, March 19, 2009 - 7:55 AMOne way to power a windmill when the wind is not blowing would be to harness all the hot air and windbags from the internet. Ah, the power of the internet. -
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Re: wind power
Tue, March 24, 2009 - 1:43 AMI looked at small-scale wind a year or 2 ago, the hardware was VERY expensive. I'd look into solar, especially passive solar for your showering pleasure -
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Unsu...
Re: wind power
Tue, March 24, 2009 - 2:40 PMDid you see this style?
www.raigattaenergy.com/
I'm wondering if something like that could be home made. Out of sheet metal (aluminum) or maybe even flexible plastic pipe???
There's some kind of bolt that attaches the metal to the main rod part, and that bolt also makes the metal rotating part hold it's shape and provide stability.
They look MUCH better than the propeller styles, and don't hurt birds. There are images of them painted, which looks very "artsy". But they could also be painted to blend with nature.
I'd love to see those used in windy areas on telephone poles, traffic signals, street lights.
I also wonder if they could be mounted horizontally. To take advantage of updrafts on the windy side of buildings.
That style is much less obtrusive, that's for sure. -
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Re: wind power
Tue, March 24, 2009 - 5:02 PMYa gotta have a lot of wind to get something with such a short axial moment arm driving a generator
And then there's the moment arm from the mount point. It'd need to have really good bearings at the base.
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Unsu...
Re: wind power
Tue, March 24, 2009 - 10:11 PMNot that I know anything about anything, but wouldn't the number of rotations make up for the smaller dimensions?
Like if you could harness pinwheels, at a cheap cost, but have thousands of them, that would pick up the slightest breeze/belch/fart, isn't it possible that a few could make up for one? -
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Re: wind power
Wed, March 25, 2009 - 7:16 AM**************Not that I know anything about anything, but wouldn't the number of rotations make up for the smaller dimensions?
Like if you could harness pinwheels, at a cheap cost, but have thousands of them, that would pick up the slightest breeze/belch/fart, isn't it possible that a few could make up for one?**************
Yes to all of that.
Except that you have to have drive efficiencies. That is to say if you hope to extract any work ( energy) from a thing that thing must be able to over come the power depletion inherent in he drive mechanism as well as the work.
Take the Generator: It's a magnetic field spinning inside another. The electricity is created when the fields come into conflict and the power driving the generator is adequate to push the magnets past their points of resistance and then again past their points of attraction.
Take the drive: Bearings consume energy. Pinwheels have none because you expect to throw them away in a matter of hours and not use them to do any work. Bearings consume power, There has to be bearings at the initial dive component ( the pinwheel or fan blades etc.) then more at all of the driven components ( the various gears or pulleys or chains used to transmit the power to the generator) and then each drive component consumes power. V belts are the worst consumers of power Flat steel belts consume the lease.
So between the actual wind and the point where energy is produces there are power consumptions elements that sap the power away.
You need a wind turbine or fan or whatever that has enough power to both oversome all the transmission components drain but then has enough left over to make electricity.
That's why the conventional turbine is huge. The length of the blades is where all that power comes from Ya gotta have a lot of airfoil sticking way out past the center axis ( in engineering terms: this is a moment arm) in order to get the power you need to get done all the things that must get done.
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Unsu...
Re: wind power
Wed, March 25, 2009 - 8:35 AMI couldn't help but to get excited over that vertical style, though. The vast numbers of potential applications. Especially in this very windy area. If they were on every telephone or electric pole, every street light, every traffic signal (where the wind warranted the application), they could help the city/county to generate their own power.
By day, the street lights aren't on, so whatever is generated goes into whatever else they have hooked up. By night, they could help offset problems with power outages during the stormy season. At least helping with the street lights and traffic signals. The power could help city/county places, in those power outages that don't have generators. That could be very important to keep people warm, dry, or air conditioned.
Bridges! We have quite a few bridges that could handle much larger wind turbines.
Cargo ships.
There's info on alternative energy in the Alternative Energy tribe (LOL):
tribes.tribe.net/altenergy
We'd chatted over there before about where the heck to put wind and solar that doesn't interfere with nature. My idea was to run those things along Interstate Highways. That center section present on many highways is ideal for solar and/or wind. Nature is already screwed up in those places. And there are roads already in place to service the energy makers. -
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Re: wind power
Wed, March 25, 2009 - 11:25 AMAnother POV on pinwheels, hamsters and other nanopower sources
www.engadget.com/2009/02/2...enerators/
Not out of the lab yet, but who knows...?
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Re: wind power
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 11:54 PMYa they look great, sort of like Tibetian prayer wheels, and very new-tech. Sandia Labs was researching them in the 1980s. I seem to recall some old articles in Mother Earth News or one of those 'zines, showing a guy making them of oil drums in his welding shop.
But you'd need lots of 'em gang-linked in series, and then lots and lots of wind, in order to catch enough airflow to power anything. -
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Unsu...
Re: wind power
Fri, March 27, 2009 - 6:38 PMDid you check out the photo gallery and their actual products? They also have the single or double panel solar option available with the wind generators.
There are places that are VERY windy. I'm near the coast and it has been windy virtually non-stop for days. The apartment complex goes up about 8 stories. The roof is flat. Here it would make more sense to use wind instead of solar. Because there isn't much sun in summer (we get high fog all summer and never see the sun).
And it's an apartment complex that has lights on 24/7 in the hallways and garages. Unless they tear down the building, it will always require hall lighting.
As far as wind goes, I'm like a half mile from here:
Fort Funston is one of the best places on the planet to hang glide. Consistently flyable winds year round, easy access from all over the SF Bay Area, a variety of challenging and rewarding weather conditions, convenient top landing, and the near-mythical Funston Shear make it an all-around favorite.
www.flyfunston.org/
These great sandy bluffs, combined with the steady ocean breeze, make Fort Funston one of the premier hang-gliding spots in the nation. Between late March and October, when the west winds blow strong, hang-gliders fill the skies over Fort Funston’s long beach, coastal trails, and sand-covered gun battery. Fort Funston is a Hang-III (intermediate) site with a launch area and wheelchair-accessible viewing deck. For those interested in learning more about this daring sport, several hang-gliding shops in the Fort Funston area offer instruction, sales, and repairs. A wooden viewing deck hugs the hillside at Fort Funston, right off the parking area, and offers spectacular views of soaring hang-gliders and the coastline.
www.parksconservancy.org/visit/park.asp
I wish I ran this place with carte blanche. It would be quite the wonderland of innovation as well as beautiful native species instead of this water guzzling lawn.
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